First, I would never even bring up a military person to take a pay cut. Their life is in danger every day whether they are over sees facing the possiblity of an IED or they are over here facing the possiblity of a terror cell targeting them. They are no comparison to teachers and they should not have been included in your post. That was extremely disrespectful of those who are willing to place their life on the line for us. This is to include Police Officers and Fire Department personnel.

Teachers are not babysitters, they are educators. Do not relate them the day care service. The monies that day care centers charge are to cover their costs that arent' determined by a levy. Poor example there.

As you say, if we have 20 students per classroom then we should have 110 teachers.

The problem in our district is that we cannot get accurate numbers from the district.

One day the Treasurer said it was 1.6, then 1.4 now we are back to 1.6 (I guess it was because the 1.6 made it sound more pressing).

I get from him it is $518,000 for sub pay. Didn't elaborate and when asked, he changed it to that is Subs and Tutors. Was that a planned thought, mistake, or intentional? At this point I have not spent time on analyzing that because either way I look at it, it is too much.

Where did you read the 80-85%, I read it again and it stated 85%.

And no, he only indicated Subs and Tutors.

Personally, when I went to Streetsboro, I can't recall more than 2 teachers the entire time I went to school that were ever missing or had a sub. No disrespect, but I wish the teachers I had would have taken more time off.

On another thought, I wish I could meet every teacher I ever had today to thank them for what they did for me. Well, most all of them.

I really have a tremendous amount of respect for teachers of that time frame.

No, teachers do not make too much money. We have too many teachers, too many that really don't put their heart into it which is limiting our districts to pay the teachers who really work hard what they really deserve.

Reduce the staff by 20, reduce the Administration by 4 and we will have the funding to keep the truly good teachers who can handle 30 students in a classroom and will shine year after year. Get those teachers and students computers and the Federal Government will want to give a Blue Ribbon in education every year (I already know they can get it only once every five years).

The person watching your child in day care is getting the $140,000.00 a year. They have bonding they have to pay for, they have building maintenance to pay for, electric and so on and that is why it is a costly venture. Many things have to be considered when operating those day care centers and that is why the cost is so high.

I am giving them the opportunity to offer up a reduction in pay before the levy is put on the ballot. Especially the Administration. They won't because they know it would place them in jeopardy and they can't work with a lower pay. But asking the community to foot the bill when the economy is so unstable makes it sound like self preservation. They don't understand that their self preservation will go out the window if homes are not sold, if homes are lost and others have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to support them.

I am not sure on this but I think the contract goes longer than 2 years. The last one was negotiated after the levy of 2007. It wasn't approved I believe until mid 2008. I will have to check on that. I know they did work without a contract for at least a year or year in a half the last time.

This time, I hope we have a board that has some sense and guts to really negotiate an entirely new one and make some dramatic changes that fall in with current times.

I know a teacher from Cleveland (not our board member), but a teacher that has 38 students in her class. Very dangerous since it is in cleveland. When a teacher misses work there, they take the students in the room of 38 and divide them in half and now she has 57 in a room.
They don't get a sub to fill in for them. And our district thinks they have it bad.

Maybe what we need to do is have our teachers work in a cleveland school for two or three weeks and hear what those teachers have to go through, what they don't have and the dangers they have to face daily and they still do it. Now that's dedication to the needs and desire to teach.

At this time, I really don't think the testing the state does is a real indicator of how well students are or are not learning.

What I would like to see is a standard test that shows a division of how many scored a 100%, how many a 90, an 80, 70, or 60.

Give me the breakdown. Show me how many questions the students answered, how many questions were answered right out of what they did answer, total number of questions on the test.

Currently, every student in a district can pass the test with a D, and if you have most of them come to school and have a high attendance rating, then it appears your school can rate Excellent. It doesn't mean all the students aced the test, it just means

Now Excellent with Distinction means you have achieved many students passing with a high score on these state tests. Now that's impressive and that is why I want to see our district reach there.

It has been at least 15 years that this testing has been going on and our road to this excellent with distinction seems pretty elusive and it has not been because of money. The 2008-2009 school year proved that for the spent 1.4 million over the forecasted revenue projection and our district didn't even get Excellent across the whole district. The extra influx of money did nothing to improve our scores. In fact, in 2007 before the levy our district scored higher than they have since the levy in 2007 passed in november. Check out the ODE site, create those spread sheets and you'll see that for yourself. Raised my eyebrows when I saw that.

What you pay for day care is really of no concern here. What it costs is of no concern here. What is of concern here is how much we are paying for salaries and benefits in our school district for the number of teachers we have. If you want this many teachers, they will have to take a pay cut along with the administration to help the district survive.

Increase class sizes, reduce the teaching staff by 15 percent, release at least 4 administrators, eliminate the student quota that limits the number of students teachers can have in a classroom, eliminate supplemental contracts that pay a teacher during the school day for extra services, eliminate playground monitors and lunch room monitors (replace them with administrators or teachers), then we can provide the funding to the teachers we have at a higher rate, be able to afford the teachers we would have and put money into materials, computers a couple more technology technicians, pay the ones we have better, maintenance of buildings and buses and other needed items.

The district is basing their 85% on what the public will tolerate but they never contact the public to see if they approve of that. They have guessed or done a sampling to see if that is what they will tolerate. They have no definite proof of that other than the ones who are blinded by their misinformation fed to them by the district.

If you have the contract, then don't think. Find the correct answer and post it.

The support subs on the report contain the sub pay for bus drivers, cafe workers and other support personnel.

I will have to query the Treasurer on the Interim Treasurers cost, however I highly doubt it was included in the Sub Pay.

If you know there were more out for FMLA can you provide me with a number. Then I will be able to confirm that with the Treasurer. From attending board meetings, I believe I only noticed maybe three that were excused for that.

I guess you could go back through all the board minutes for the past school year and find that out.

Martin Fleming

Martin Fleming

First, I would never even bring up a military person to take a pay cut. Their life is in danger every day whether they are over sees facing the possiblity of an IED or they are over here facing the possiblity of a terror cell targeting them. They are no comparison to teachers and they should not have been included in your post. That was extremely disrespectful of those who are willing to place their life on the line for us. This is to include Police Officers and Fire Department personnel.

Teachers are not babysitters, they are educators. Do not relate them the day care service. The monies that day care centers charge are to cover their costs that arent' determined by a levy. Poor example there.

As you say, if we have 20 students per classroom then we should have 110 teachers.

The problem in our district is that we cannot get accurate numbers from the district.

One day the Treasurer said it was 1.6, then 1.4 now we are back to 1.6 (I guess it was because the 1.6 made it sound more pressing).

I get from him it is $518,000 for sub pay. Didn't elaborate and when asked, he changed it to that is Subs and Tutors. Was that a planned thought, mistake, or intentional? At this point I have not spent time on analyzing that because either way I look at it, it is too much.

Where did you read the 80-85%, I read it again and it stated 85%.

And no, he only indicated Subs and Tutors.

Personally, when I went to Streetsboro, I can't recall more than 2 teachers the entire time I went to school that were ever missing or had a sub. No disrespect, but I wish the teachers I had would have taken more time off.

On another thought, I wish I could meet every teacher I ever had today to thank them for what they did for me. Well, most all of them.

I really have a tremendous amount of respect for teachers of that time frame.

No, teachers do not make too much money. We have too many teachers, too many that really don't put their heart into it which is limiting our districts to pay the teachers who really work hard what they really deserve.

Reduce the staff by 20, reduce the Administration by 4 and we will have the funding to keep the truly good teachers who can handle 30 students in a classroom and will shine year after year. Get those teachers and students computers and the Federal Government will want to give a Blue Ribbon in education every year (I already know they can get it only once every five years).

The person watching your child in day care is getting the $140,000.00 a year. They have bonding they have to pay for, they have building maintenance to pay for, electric and so on and that is why it is a costly venture. Many things have to be considered when operating those day care centers and that is why the cost is so high.

I am giving them the opportunity to offer up a reduction in pay before the levy is put on the ballot. Especially the Administration. They won't because they know it would place them in jeopardy and they can't work with a lower pay. But asking the community to foot the bill when the economy is so unstable makes it sound like self preservation. They don't understand that their self preservation will go out the window if homes are not sold, if homes are lost and others have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to support them.

I am not sure on this but I think the contract goes longer than 2 years. The last one was negotiated after the levy of 2007. It wasn't approved I believe until mid 2008. I will have to check on that. I know they did work without a contract for at least a year or year in a half the last time.

This time, I hope we have a board that has some sense and guts to really negotiate an entirely new one and make some dramatic changes that fall in with current times.

I know a teacher from Cleveland (not our board member), but a teacher that has 38 students in her class. Very dangerous since it is in cleveland. When a teacher misses work there, they take the students in the room of 38 and divide them in half and now she has 57 in a room.
They don't get a sub to fill in for them. And our district thinks they have it bad.

Maybe what we need to do is have our teachers work in a cleveland school for two or three weeks and hear what those teachers have to go through, what they don't have and the dangers they have to face daily and they still do it. Now that's dedication to the needs and desire to teach.

At this time, I really don't think the testing the state does is a real indicator of how well students are or are not learning.

What I would like to see is a standard test that shows a division of how many scored a 100%, how many a 90, an 80, 70, or 60.

Give me the breakdown. Show me how many questions the students answered, how many questions were answered right out of what they did answer, total number of questions on the test.

Currently, every student in a district can pass the test with a D, and if you have most of them come to school and have a high attendance rating, then it appears your school can rate Excellent. It doesn't mean all the students aced the test, it just means

Now Excellent with Distinction means you have achieved many students passing with a high score on these state tests. Now that's impressive and that is why I want to see our district reach there.

It has been at least 15 years that this testing has been going on and our road to this excellent with distinction seems pretty elusive and it has not been because of money. The 2008-2009 school year proved that for the spent 1.4 million over the forecasted revenue projection and our district didn't even get Excellent across the whole district. The extra influx of money did nothing to improve our scores. In fact, in 2007 before the levy our district scored higher than they have since the levy in 2007 passed in november. Check out the ODE site, create those spread sheets and you'll see that for yourself. Raised my eyebrows when I saw that.

What you pay for day care is really of no concern here. What it costs is of no concern here. What is of concern here is how much we are paying for salaries and benefits in our school district for the number of teachers we have. If you want this many teachers, they will have to take a pay cut along with the administration to help the district survive.

Increase class sizes, reduce the teaching staff by 15 percent, release at least 4 administrators, eliminate the student quota that limits the number of students teachers can have in a classroom, eliminate supplemental contracts that pay a teacher during the school day for extra services, eliminate playground monitors and lunch room monitors (replace them with administrators or teachers), then we can provide the funding to the teachers we have at a higher rate, be able to afford the teachers we would have and put money into materials, computers a couple more technology technicians, pay the ones we have better, maintenance of buildings and buses and other needed items.

The district is basing their 85% on what the public will tolerate but they never contact the public to see if they approve of that. They have guessed or done a sampling to see if that is what they will tolerate. They have no definite proof of that other than the ones who are blinded by their misinformation fed to them by the district.

If you have the contract, then don't think. Find the correct answer and post it.

The support subs on the report contain the sub pay for bus drivers, cafe workers and other support personnel.

I will have to query the Treasurer on the Interim Treasurers cost, however I highly doubt it was included in the Sub Pay.

If you know there were more out for FMLA can you provide me with a number. Then I will be able to confirm that with the Treasurer. From attending board meetings, I believe I only noticed maybe three that were excused for that.

I guess you could go back through all the board minutes for the past school year and find that out.

Martin Fleming

Martin Fleming

Lots to respond to, little time.

I have a copy of the contract, but didn't have it with me when I posted originally. I still think its 15 sick days and 3 personal days totalling 18 days.

The number I read was 80-85% of money was to go to salaries. My interpretation of that was the percentage of all general funds which falls in line with what you had stated before. But I can easily see where your interpretation would come from.

I'm not arguing your numbers from the Treasurer at all, I just don't see how that works out with respect to the time teachers (and only teachers) are allowed to take. I don't do the books for the schools, but would wonder if other substitute costs (bus drivers, cafe workers, interim treasurers, etc) are in there. If not, then it appears as if every teacher is taking more time away then the contract allows. Based on my experience with the process, I just don't see that happening.

I used the 160 figure so we wouldn't have to debate that issue all over again. I originally ran the numbers using my 127 count and showed 25% of time lost. Either way, 18% or 25% just doesn't jibe with what I see in the schools as far as teachers missing time.

I agree with the 2-3 people on FMLA long term, but there are more than that out due to childbirth at any point in time.

The number of authorized subs, I believe, are those available to call and all districts keep a pretty long list. The list needs to be long because most subs are on 3-4 districts' lists so they have multiple opportunities to earn wages. You may have to call down the list awhile before getting to a sub available to work.

Are we back on the "teachers make too much money" argument? Let me know and I'll be more than happy to elaborate on that one further. Call up any of your local daycare facilities and find out what it costs for a child to go there. The last one I used (in Streetsboro) was $775 a month per child and that wasn't for any sort of educational program, just care. Break that down to $193 per week per child times 36 weeks (180 days / 5 days a week) and the total cost is just short of $7,000 a year. If a teacher has 20 students in their classroom (see next paragraph debating average class sizes), that's $140,000 per year for a class. Using even 70% going to the teacher themself, it's $98,000 for that individual. Simple childcare would pay more than a teacher.

As to average class sizes, I am discounting 7th grade and above and looking at the elementary schools alone for average class size. Walk into an elementary class and count heads and its usually north of 20 kids. I believe the average class sizes gets deflated when you take into account the upper level grades (where there are more subject specific teachers) and the "special" teachers who don't have an actual class (PE, art, music, etc.).

There was a time when a teacher's salary could be the sole breadwinner in a house, but that has mostly passed us by. Now, it's usually a supplemental income or part of a two wage-earner household.

The thing that bugs me most of all is the impression I get that you are tying educational salaries to a level of commitment to the community or even the schools. That unless they show their willingness to reduce their own pay voluntarily, they are somehow hurting the rest of us. No one I know of went to their bosses recently and said "I know the company is in trouble, cut my pay". Some had it happen to them, but it wasn't voluntarily. The country is in a very big deficit and an economic crisis, but even I wouldn't dream of going to our military personnel and asking them to take a paycut to save me tax dollars.

The union contract is up at the end of this school year and it will be very interesting to see what approach both sides will take. I know that twice in the past decade, Streetsboro teachers have agreed to a wage freeze, yet that never seems to be brought up in these discussions. They have shown in the past a willingness to accept less than optimal terms. heck, they show that by working in this district to begin with.

Those are subs they are hiring.

Thought that one got past us.

Martin Fleming

Just imagine if we used knowledgeispowers counting of only 127 teachers in the district.

I'm afraid to figure that one out.

Now which is it, Mr. Berner stating we had 160 teachers, or knowledgeispower counting 127 based on what the web has posted (which may or may not be up to date).

The number of days subs are working explains the number of subs I see in the Boards agenda every month. Another piece of the puzzled comes into play.

Martin Fleming

Let's see again, if knowledgeispower calculated that out of all the teachers in the district (let's use the figure Mr. Berner gave us over the summer on his High School web page, which was 160), and if the number was accurate that means each teacher would of had 32 days they didn't come to work a in a school year. 32 divided by the 5 day work week equals a little over 6 weeks of school a school year (9 months), that a child was lacking the education of the certified degreed teacher that should have been assigned to that class.

Tell me again why the teachers and administration shouldn't take a cut in pay?

Passing the levy means every taxpayer is to take a cut in their pay (money that would have been a raise is going right back out to support the levy), so we can insure the teachers receive their pay raises, salaries and benefits and a continuing increase?

They stated that 85% will go to salaries and benefits in the Record Courier did they not?

Martin Fleming

Now, if those 17.7 teachers (we'll round it down to 17 just to make this easier), are paid the median wage on all those days they took off, you know they have accumulated sick days, so many personal days, so many compensatory time days, vacation days that they can use to still receive pay on those days off, let's see that's:

17 teachers x $56,000 median wage equals $952,000.00 dollars. Just about the $900,000.00 we're short.

Go figure.

Martin Fleming

Let's think about this one for a moment.

In Wednesdays Record Courier October 21, 2009 it stated that 85% will be used for Salaries and Benefits.

We were short $900,000 but they are going to use $3,409,350. for paying the salary out of the $4,011,000.00 the levy will generate.

Or is it that they are going to spend 85% for salaries and benefits out of the entire General Fund?

Last school year they said the Salaries and Benefits cost us 81%. The levy passes, they get an additional $4,011,000.00 funds injected into the general fund and salaries and benefits will rise to 85%. And they say this is for the children.

If a private company is paying out Salaries and benefits I believe the employee is the one who wins out. In our school district paying out for salaries and benefits is for the children.

The says it's for the children. The Children will get 5% of the total funds that they will have to share.

Education at its finest. I finally get it.

Martin Fleming

If you like horror books you'll probably will like the union contract.

Pretty spooky. Good read this time of year! It'll probably make your heart stop!

Martin Fleming

knowledgeispower and for anyone else, if you want a copy of the Teachers Final Union Contract all you need do is send an email off to Neil Barnes the Streetsboro City School District Treasurer at
nbarnes@rockets.sparcc.org and request a copy.

The Ohio Sunshine Law grants you the right to receive a copy from the district. Then no one has to argue about what the teachers do and don't get.

Simple enough.

Martin Fleming